Part Four: Chapter 10

by Leo Tolstoy

　　Pestsov liked thrashing an argument out to the end, and was notsatisfied with Sergey Ivanovitch's words, especially as he feltthe injustice of his view.

　　"I did not mean," he said over the soup, addressing AlexeyAlexandrovitch, "mere density of population alone, but inconjunction with fundamental ideas, and not by means ofprinciples."

　　"It seems to me," Alexey Alexandrovitch said languidly, and withno haste, "that that's the same thing. In my opinion, influenceover another people is only possible to the people which has thehigher development, which..."

　　"But that's just the question," Pestsov broke in in his bass.

　　He was always in a hurry to speak, and seemed always to put hiswhole soul into what he was saying. "In what are we to makehigher development consist? The English, the French, theGermans, which is at the highest stage of development? Which ofthem will nationalize the other? We see the Rhine provinces havebeen turned French, but the Germans are not at a lower stage!" heshouted. "There is another law at work there."

　　"I fancy that the greater influence is always on the side of truecivilization," said Alexey Alexandrovitch, slightly lifting hiseyebrows.

　　"But what are we to lay down as the outward signs of truecivilization?" said Pestsov.

　　"I imagine such signs are generally very well known," said AlexeyAlexandrovitch.

　　"But are they fully known?" Sergey Ivanovitch put in with asubtle smile. "It is the accepted view now that real culturemust be purely classical; but we see most intense disputes oneach side of the question, and there is no denying that theopposite camp has strong points in its favor."

　　"You are for classics, Sergey Ivanovitch. Will you take redwine?" said Stepan Arkadyevitch.

　　"I am not expressing my own opinion of either form of culture,"Sergey Ivanovitch said, holding out his glass with a smile ofcondescension, as to a child. "I only say that both sides havestrong arguments to support them," he went on, addressing AlexeyAlexandrovitch. "My sympathies are classical from education, butin this discussion I am personally unable to arrive at aconclusion. I see no distinct grounds for classical studiesbeing given a preeminence over scientific studies."

　　"The natural sciences have just as great an educational value,"put in Pestsov. "Take astronomy, take botany, or zoology withits system of general principles."

　　"I cannot quite agree with that," responded Alexey Alexandrovitch"It seems to me that one must admit that the very process ofstudying the forms of language has a peculiarly favorableinfluence on intellectual development. Moreover, it cannot bedenied that the influence of the classical authors is in thehighest degree moral, while, unfortunately, with the study of thenatural sciences are associated the false and noxious doctrineswhich are the curse of our day."

　　Sergey Ivanovitch would have said something, but Pestsovinterrupted him in his rich bass. He began warmly contesting thejustice of this view. Sergey Ivanovitch waited serenely tospeak, obviously with a convincing reply ready.

　　"But," said Sergey Ivanovitch, smiling subtly, and addressingKarenin, "One must allow that to weigh all the advantages anddisadvantages of classical and scientific studies is a difficulttask, and the question which form of education was to bepreferred would not have been so quickly and conclusively decidedif there had not been in favor of classical education, as youexpressed it just now, its moral--disons le mot--anti-nihilistinfluence."

　　"Undoubtedly."

　　"If it had not been for the distinctive property ofanti-nihilistic influence on the side of classical studies, weshould have considered the subject more, have weighed thearguments on both sides," said Sergey Ivanovitch with a subtlesmile, "we should have given elbow-room to both tendencies. Butnow we know that these little pills of classical learning possessthe medicinal property of anti-nihilism, and we boldly prescribethem to our patients.... But what if they had no such medicinalproperty?" he wound up humorously.

　　At Sergey Ivanovitch's little pills, everyone laughed; Turovtsinin especial roared loudly and jovially, glad at last to havefound something to laugh at, all he ever looked for in listeningto conversation.

　　Stepan Arkadyevitch had not made a mistake in inviting Pestsov.With Pestsov intellectual conversation never flagged for aninstant. Directly Sergey Ivanovitch had concluded theconversation with his jest, Pestsov promptly started a new one.

　　"I can't agree even," said he, "that the government had that aim.The government obviously is guided by abstract considerations,and remains indifferent to the influence its measures mayexercise. The education of women, for instance, would naturallybe regarded as likely to be harmful, but the government opensschools and universities for women."

　　And the conversation at once passed to the new subject of theeducation of women.

　　Alexey Alexandrovitch expressed the idea that the education ofwomen is apt to be confounded with the emancipation of women, andthat it is only so that it can be considered dangerous.

　　"I consider, on the contrary, that the two questions areinseparably connected together," said Pestsov; "it is a viciouscircle. Woman is deprived of rights from lack of education, andthe lack of education results from the absence of rights. Wemust not forget that the subjection of women is so complete, anddates from such ages back that we are often unwilling torecognize the gulf that separates them from us," said he.

　　"You said rights," said Sergey Ivanovitch, waiting till Pestsovhad finished, "meaning the right of sitting on juries, of voting,of presiding at official meetings, the right of entering thecivil service, of sitting in parliament..."

　　"Undoubtedly."

　　"But if women, as a rare exception, can occupy such positions, itseems to me you are wrong in using the expression 'rights.' Itwould be more correct to say duties. Every man will agree thatin doing the duty of a juryman, a witness, a telegraph clerk, wefeel we are performing duties. And therefore it would be correctto say that women are seeking duties, and quite legitimately.And one can but sympathize with this desire to assist in thegeneral labor of man."

　　"Quite so," Alexey Alexandrovitch assented. "The question, Iimagine, is simply whether they are fitted for such duties."

　　"They will most likely be perfectly fitted," said StepanArkadyevitch, "when education has become general among them. Wesee this..."

　　"How about the proverb?" said the prince, who had a long whilebeen intent on the conversation, his little comical eyestwinkling. "I can say it before my daughter: her hair is long,because her wit is..."

　　"Just what they thought of the negroes before theiremancipation!" said Pestsov angrily.

　　"What seems strange to me is that women should seek freshduties," said Sergey Ivanovitch, "while we see, unhappily, thatmen usually try to avoid them."

　　"Duties are bound up with rights--power, money, honor; those arewhat women are seeking," said Pestsov.

　　"Just as though I should seek the right to be a wet-nurse andfeel injured because women are paid for the work, while no onewill take me," said the old prince.

　　Turovtsin exploded in a loud roar of laughter and SergeyIvanovitch regretted that he had not made this comparison. EvenAlexey Alexandrovitch smiled.

　　"Yes, but a man can't nurse a baby," said Pestsov, "while awoman..."

　　"No, there was an Englishman who did suckle his baby on boardship," said the old prince, feeling this freedom in conversationpermissible before his own daughters.

　　"There are as many such Englishmen as there would be womenofficials," said Sergey Ivanovitch.

　　"Yes, but what is a girl to do who has no family?" put in StepanArkadyevitch, thinking of Masha Tchibisova, whom he had had inhis mind all along, in sympathizing with Pestsov and supportinghim.

　　"If the story of such a girl were thoroughly sifted, you wouldfind she had abandoned a family--her own or a sister's, where shemight have found a woman's duties," Darya Alexandrovna broke inunexpectedly in a tone of exasperation, probably suspecting whatsort of girl Stepan Arkadyevitch was thinking of.

　　"But we take our stand on principle as the ideal," repliedPestsov in his mellow bass. "Woman desires to have rights, to beindependent, educated. She is oppressed, humiliated by theconsciousness of her disabilities."

　　"And I'm oppressed and humiliated that they won't engage me atthe Foundling," the old prince said again, to the huge delight ofTurovtsin, who in his mirth dropped his asparagus with the thickend in the sauce.